World Background Maps

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BenganJ
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Re: World Background Maps

Post by BenganJ » June 3rd, 2020, 3:19 pm

I will try to keep this as non technical as possible, but it is hard when the differences we
are talking about is of the technical kind! I'll do my best!

Monday, December 12, 2016 ATS World Rescale is released in Update 1.5 is the event when
SCS changed to their new map projection, Lambert Conical. At the release of ETS2 v1.30
they also changed to that projection too, almost a year later. All this is confirmed in a
single post on the SCS forum, where Max from SCS says this.
Gazer75 wrote: ?15 Nov 2017 16:11
I believe SCS changed the projection for the in game map a while back.
indeed.
rescale was opportunity to fix more things. before we had USA map in
mercator projection (north border was line) and washington state has
similar size as texas. now we have lambert conical projection (most
used projection in north american atlases) - it preserves distances,
areas, good enough shapes and locally angles. the only thing is that
east-west direction is curved, but you cannot see it in game, and on
map you may expect it as USA are depicted like this commonly.

disadvantage is that map is heavily distorted in bigger distances
from USA.

btw, ets2 map is also conical projection just with different params.
Here you can see that from december 2017 BOTH ATS AND ETS2 had changed to Lambert
Conical projection. You can also see there why I have guessed SCS still uses a Mercator
projection for their present UI map in ETS2. It was their previous one and it looks like
that. Maybe it's as simple as, SCS is lazy and as long as the old UI BG works, why change
it! I don't give a damn, nobody except SCS knows the truth there and they won't tell us.
Sadly that don't stop Promods from basing their UI BG on that, in spite of the fact that
they are now starting to enter area with distortion. Expanation further down.

I will now try to visualize what this Lambert Conic projection looks like. You have a cone,
with its top straight above the North Pole, cutting into the globe at a certain latitude,
for ETS2 at the 65th one, producing a circle around the globe. It then returns to the outside
at another latitude, the 37th. It looks like what you see to the left in the following picture.
Lambert_conformal_conic.jpg
Click on image to get a bigger one!

In the case of ETS2 the map origin is located slightly to the east of Prague and in an area
around and in between those circles, the map is pretty correct. But moving above the upper
circle and below the lower one, the higher the distortion will be. moving east or west will
get you pretty good correctness but the map will be more and more rotated. That's how SCS's
ONLY map projection works. You can see the flat map representation to the right in the above
picture.

I have to use that map projection as my BGs are so large as to cover all the way east to Japan
and down including Madagascar. SCS don't have to do that and Promods ought to do it. I'll stop
here now, as I'm damned tired of having to explain these things over and over again. At least
try to take it in and understand the problems with this. I don't "ddemand" ANYTHING from Promods
or SCS, they can do, and will do, whatever they see fit, I have only suggested things.

@paokkerkir

Thanks mate, you seem to have grasped what it's all about. You try to understand. But, as I said
to you and also up above, Mercator is just a guess, ONLY SCS knows.

@MG Mike

You too try hard to understand, but have a harder time, but keep reading and be curious.

@Arayas & 3rik

You two sadly do the same mistake as Promods, comparing with the SCS UI BG, which we know NOTHING
about. They might change to the official Lambert Conic projection at any time, we probably won't
be notified about it either.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a concluding statement, I will NOT do any covering up for any maps. PERIOD! The last update
though of the three ETS2 universal BGs to v1.3, was not a success, so I will do some small one
adjustments soon. It will NOT fix the ME problem.

Feel free to comment as much as you like, but I will now take a rest from this damn chaos, I'm
tired! And folks, I'm in NO way forcing you to use any of my stuff, it's your choice all the way.
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Sansemiano
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Re: World Background Maps

Post by Sansemiano » June 3rd, 2020, 3:39 pm

@BenganJ: Man, just adapt your map and get over it. All this stubborn theoretical user-unfriendly behaviour leads to nothing.
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Re: World Background Maps

Post by 3rik » June 3rd, 2020, 3:42 pm

If its that hard to decide, i think we should just have another poll. ask people, do they want this background map to follow SCS's image, therefore also following promods
or do they want this map to continue using whatever it currently is.
Last edited by 3rik on June 3rd, 2020, 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: World Background Maps

Post by Arayas » June 3rd, 2020, 3:48 pm

Well, if i dont use original SCS background to compare it, what to use? Now we say SCS got it wrong, but 3 lines later we say we dont know how SCS got their projection....we guess...
I think we started the discution from how to fit to SCS background a larger background (both for editor and gameplay)...but now that seams to be obsolete...SCS is wrong so we know better.
Eurasia has an uniform shifting, so a value is wrong somewhere. But ok, if you dont want to cover any background..no problem. Your choice and i respect that.

I will pull myself from this topic because SCS is wrong, Promods is making fake backgrounds (no joke here) and Eurasia is not fitting with the base game but is fitting with a cone. That's perfect news for people who had or will start a map re-placement.
3rik wrote:
June 3rd, 2020, 3:42 pm
If its that hard to decide, i think we should just have another poll. ask people, do they want this background map to follow SCS's image, therefore also following promods
I think you are confusing bears with goats here. The poll was about "cheating" the map to fit Promods. As you see in my video Promods is in the woods waaaaaay harder than Eurasia moderate shifting.
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paokkerkir
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Re: World Background Maps

Post by paokkerkir » June 3rd, 2020, 4:05 pm

dOOmERdaZe wrote:
December 26th, 2018, 10:13 am
=====> Promods based combos mod v1.0.
=====> Map image projection is Lambert Conic Conformal.
[See NOTE 1]
=====> Zoom is built-in, so don't use any zoom mod!


Image

=====> Download: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1izp4K ... zPRljiANHT

Credits: Arayas for initial zoom parameters.
Has anyone tried this if it is better placed with ProMods?
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Re: World Background Maps

Post by Uffetjur » June 3rd, 2020, 5:57 pm

Thank you Bengan for a really nice and educating explanation, feel sorry for users who are to stubborn to realise whats important and whats less important ( feels like someone is trying to just pick a fight), for me the background maps is just a nice presentation and actually not the gaming area. if we want a total realistic map then we need SCS to make changes to there data, but as long as they dont do that we gonna have to live with deformations of the real map no matter who the creator is...
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Re: World Background Maps

Post by CAPLV » June 3rd, 2020, 7:03 pm

@paokkerkir - its usable for Promods combo.. except ME placement, but can live with it..
Universal BG map have small glitch in UK, so cant be proper use in Promods combo... until some fix that

as we see upper.. all are wrong.. SCS, Promods and even Bengan :D

user doesnt care about lamber, gamber, conical bla bla bla projections.. user want to see fine sattelite background map (i, personally hate SCS standart map...)
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SETrucker
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Re: World Background Maps

Post by SETrucker » June 3rd, 2020, 7:10 pm

paokkerkir wrote:
June 3rd, 2020, 4:05 pm
dOOmERdaZe wrote:
December 26th, 2018, 10:13 am
=====> Promods based combos mod v1.0.
=====> Map image projection is Lambert Conic Conformal.
[See NOTE 1]
=====> Zoom is built-in, so don't use any zoom mod!


Image

=====> Download: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1izp4K ... zPRljiANHT

Credits: Arayas for initial zoom parameters.
Has anyone tried this if it is better placed with ProMods?
No it did not get better at all it is not right yet ...
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MG Mike
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Re: World Background Maps

Post by MG Mike » June 3rd, 2020, 7:15 pm

Hehehe, I wonder if someone from SCS who knows about map projections would read all this here as well as at Promods Forums.. What will he say to us (all).

Are we wrong, is Promods wrong, is scs either wrong?!?
That would be really interesting to hear the side of the main creators.. Also to clear some waters here and there for all who are interested in this..
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Re: World Background Maps

Post by 3rik » June 3rd, 2020, 8:16 pm

MG Mike wrote:
June 3rd, 2020, 7:15 pm
Hehehe, I wonder if someone from SCS who knows about map projections would read all this here as well as at Promods Forums.. What will he say to us (all).

Are we wrong, is Promods wrong, is scs either wrong?!?
That would be really interesting to hear the side of the main creators.. Also to clear some waters here and there for all who are interested in this..
Depends on your definition of wrong. For something to be wrong, something else has to be right.
In this case, since we can't have a 1:1 copy of the globe until scs change how the map bg works, the "correct" one would be scs, no matter what, since they make the game.
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